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樓主: everok

[交易商] 瑞富门事件(REFCO)4亿3000万美圆财务丑闻

[複製鏈接]
發表於 2005-10-25 15:21:19 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:da517f7742="fxinfo"]
与“外汇和其他场外衍生品交易”有关的应收帐款大幅飙升至8.11亿美元,而上年同期仅为 3,800万美元。


这个本身不能说明 外汇和其他场外衍生品交易 有问题,只能说明 外汇和其他场外衍生品交易 被利用作为把一些亏损隐藏成了应收款项。
基于此,无法证明REFCO的外汇业务是赢利的。[/quote]

所以感到奇怪。如果交易商也无法从外汇交易中赢利那么钱都被谁赚走了?Refco是个例还是是个普遍现象?
發表於 2005-10-25 16:10:18 | 顯示全部樓層
我觉得不是说外汇不赢利,而是外汇的赢利无法弥补被那些高官弄出来的窟窿
發表於 2005-10-26 17:02:19 | 顯示全部樓層
Release: 5133-05
For Release: October 19, 2005

Statement of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission Regarding the Bankruptcy Filing by Refco Inc.

Washington, D.C. – The Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) today issued the following statement regarding the bankruptcy filing by Refco Inc. and its implications for and impact on Refco LLC:

The CFTC continues to monitor the actions taken by Refco Inc. -- including yesterday’s bankruptcy filing -- to determine what, if any, effect they may have on Refco LLC, the CFTC regulated futures commission merchant (FCM), which, along with Refco Overseas Ltd. and Refco Singapore Ltd., was not a party filing for bankruptcy.

The CFTC’s auditors and attorneys are actively engaged in re-confirming that Refco LLC’s customer funds on deposit remain uncompromised and that the capital requirements of Refco LLC continue to be met.

The CFTC is working closely with all interested parties including, among others, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Justice, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (the designated self-regulatory organization for Refco LLC), the National Futures Association, and the Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York.


在这些没破产的REFCO里面还有资金的,最好立即提款
在那些已破产的REFCO里面还有资金的,立即保留账户报告(最好找公证做个证明)
發表於 2005-10-26 19:18:59 | 顯示全部樓層
Refco Regulator Calls on Bankrupt Broker to Find a Buyer Soon
Oct. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The Chicago Mercantile Exchange, a regulator of bankrupt futures broker Refco Inc., called on the New York-based firm to find a buyer as soon as possible to restore investor confidence.

``Our preference is the sooner the better,'' said Craig Donohue, the exchange's chief executive officer, in an interview. ``People in the markets prefer certainty versus uncertainty.''

Refco was the largest independent U.S. futures broker with a market value of $3.6 billion until Oct. 10 when the firm disclosed that former Chief Executive Officer Phillip Bennett hid $430 million of bad debts. Refco filed for bankruptcy protection a week later.

Since Oct. 17, at least seven companies, including Merrill Lynch & Co. and Interactive Brokers Group LLC, have shown an interest in acquiring all or parts of Refco. More companies are ``looking at it,'' Donohue said yesterday.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert Drain has set an auction for Nov. 9. Refco can decide whether to participate in the auction or it could sell off its assets. The bankruptcy has prompted Refco clients to move their accounts to competing firms. Assets at the firm's futures units fell to $3.4 billion from $7.5 billion in the days before the bankruptcy filing.

``Our interest isn't in favoring one entity over another,'' Donohue said in the interview yesterday. ``Our interest is in both a timely resolution of the issues related to Refco and ensuring customer protection and the orderly disposition of the business.''

Lost Accounts

Interactive Brokers of Greenwich, Connecticut, said it's taking in about $20 million a day in Refco accounts and has accrued about $120 million in all since the scandal began, the Wall Street Journal reported earlier today. Rand Financial Services Inc., a Chicago-based brokerage, also said it has taken on some Refco customers, the newspaper reported.

Citigroup Inc. in New York, Paris-based Credit Agricole SA's Calyon and Man Group's Man Financial also are winning Refco customers such as Chicago-based Dearborn Capital Management LLC, Securities and Exchange Commission filings show.

Interactive Brokers, the biggest privately held U.S. broker-dealer, has made the largest publicly disclosed offer for Refco. It has bid $858 million, equal to 115 percent of Refco's book value. A group including the Dubai government and billionaire Ronald Burkle offered $828 million. Buyout firm Apollo Management LLC and hedge-fund managers Man Group and Marathon Asset Management also said they may bid.

Bidders

TradeLink LLC, a Chicago-based futures commission merchant, yesterday said it may bid for some or all of Refco's assets in an alliance with former Chicago Board of Trade Chairman Nickolas Neubauer and Walt Weissman, a former CBOT board member.

For now, all the bids have focused on Refco's regulated futures units, including Refco LLC, Refco Overseas Ltd. and Refco (Singapore) Pte. Drain has said the auction will be open to cash and non-cash offers and Greenhill & Co., Refco's New York-based financial adviser, is making the company's non-public books available to all bidders.

``There are a wide range of groups that have either declared themselves available or interested, or are looking at it but haven't yet publicly declared that,'' Donohue said.

Bids for Refco may reach as high as $1.2 billion, or 1.5 times the company's assets, said Luis Rinaldini, a former banker at Lazard Ltd. and Credit Suisse First Boston who now runs New York-based Groton Partners LLC, in an interview yesterday.

The Chicago Mercantile Exchange, the largest U.S. market for derivatives, must approve any buyer. Refco was the largest provider of trades on the CME last year.

``Our interest is in making sure that whoever is either going to acquire and run the business, or simply run the business, is a qualified party,'' Donohue said. ``Capital wherewithal, experience and knowledge, integrity, and the qualifications of key management would all be important considerations.''

-- Editor: Quinson


it's taking in about $20 million a day in Refco accounts and has accrued about $120 million in all since the scandal began,
一个多亿美金的客人资金 :!:
發表於 2005-10-26 23:45:23 | 顯示全部樓層
国内根本不认国外的Fx Margin Trade, 到那做公证。有谁做过公证的帮忙介绍下。

实际上国内公证又怎么样, 从NFA得知"all FX products are not traded on a regulated exchange", 就算FXCM, FX Solutions 也一样,监管的只是"futures units". 要破产也一样.

谁问过CFTC?他们是否监管Refcofx?
 樓主| 發表於 2005-10-27 00:41:35 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:0ddd50865b="david11"]国内根本不认国外的Fx Margin Trade, 到那做公证。有谁做过公证的帮忙介绍下。

实际上国内公证又怎么样, 从NFA得知"all FX products are not traded on a regulated exchange", 就算FXCM, FX Solutions 也一样,监管的只是"futures units". 要破产也一样.

谁问过CFTC?他们是否监管Refcofx?[/quote]

正是因为不是在REGULATED EXCHANGE交易,所以我们才要确认我们的交易对手(造市商)是一个有牌照的公司。
因为REFCOFX不是NFA的会员,所以也就谈不上CFTC的监管。

公证是证明你的资金所在,以便找REFCO追款时候更有说服力。
發表於 2005-10-27 01:21:47 | 顯示全部樓層
谢谢斑竹,但是我的问题还没解决,

我也想公证,但是Margin Trade在国内都不合法, 有人帮你做吗?

现在不是公司有没牌照的问题,而是如果Fx Margin Trade不受监管的话,你的交易将是"private", 就是只有你和造市商的关系. 你只能相信他的信用.

它有牌照也会破产呀, 如果你的交易是受监管的"futures units"期货交易, 你的账户资金将得到保证, 但是你的交易是Fx Margin Trade这种"private",

"In some jurisdictions, property which had been specifically identifiable as your own will be pro-rated in the same manner as cash for purposes of distribution in the event of a shortfall. "
经确定属于你的资产有可能被当作现金,于损失时按比例被分发。"

大家可以到FXCM里查. Refcofx的网页已经close. 不对的话, 斑竹指正.
發表於 2005-10-27 12:06:51 | 顯示全部樓層
otc fx 本来就是OTC ,这是事实,从来没变过。
现在的问题就是给你提供OTC FX的交易公司要受到监管。
你的逻辑有问题,
1。现在的核心故障是REFCO的无牌照公司出了问题,出在自己的运营没有被监管。
2。MARGIN交易是否合法同你公证有什么关系? 你要公证的是你的帐户里面有多少钱。
發表於 2005-10-27 12:29:19 | 顯示全部樓層
核心是 “otc fx 本来就是OTC“ 是“private” 私下交易, NFA明确答复不会监管,FXCM也一样, 它的FX交易,NFA 也没有被监管, NFA只管他的期货交易。

问题很简单, 如果FXCM, FX Solutions破产,ricky你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?

从FXCM得到的答复是“经确定属于你的资产有可能被当作现金,于损失时按比例被分发“
發表於 2005-10-27 12:33:01 | 顯示全部樓層
只有希望Refcofx被收购,真的破产就惨了
發表於 2005-10-27 12:51:26 | 顯示全部樓層
如果FXCM, FX Solutions破产,ricky你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?



如果有限公司破产,你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?

答案是: NO。 这是公司法的最基本常识。


现在的问题不是OTC FX出问题,而是没有被监管的REFCO部分公司出了问题,所以只要选择了有牌照的就会相对安全, 明白?
你如果还是不明白,可以找你的经纪咨询一下。
發表於 2005-10-27 14:16:44 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:bc4261028f="ricky"]
如果有限公司破产,你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?

答案是: NO。 这是公司法的最基本常识。

[/quote]

明白了,
發表於 2005-10-27 16:57:16 | 顯示全部樓層
这个问题比较有意思。讨论讨论。

我觉得客户存在Refco的资金不应该被视作贷给Refco的资金,客户也不应该因此成为Unsecured Creditor,不应该为Refco的破产承担损失。当然,这最终还是要看当时的开户协议是怎么写的了,我不是Refco的客户我不清楚。

这个俄国的对冲基金就是要反驳Refco将他们列入Creditor的行列。
MOSCOW, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Moscow-based hedge fund VR Group, named by Refco (RFX.N: Quote, Profile, Research) as a major creditor, said on Friday it would challenge the terms of the U.S. broker's bankruptcy filing and that its operations were not under threat from the case.

VR-related entities were named in Refco's Chapter 11 suit as creditors with exposure of $472 million, making VR the biggest creditor of Refco, which is the largest independent U.S. futures brokerage.

But Richard Deitz, founder and president of distressed debt specialist VR, said the money was being held in custody by Refco and as a result VR should not be included in the creditor list.

"Those assets are our assets," Deitz told Reuters. "We vigorously reject the notion that any assets form part of the estate of Refco."


Kevin Starke, New York-based senior equity analyst at Weedon & Co, said that VR -- along with other account holders at Refco's capital markets unit -- stood a fair chance of persuading the bankruptcy court not to rule it as an unsecured creditor.

"They were all making similar arguments that, while Refco Capital Markets might have legal title to those accounts, it doesn't have an equitable interest," he said.

"That's an argument that may carry the day," added Starke, who was in court observing the case on Thursday.

Deitz said the hedge funds run by VR were not at risk. He declined to say how much money VR had under management, but financial sources in the Russian capital have put the total at about $600 million.

"Absolutely, our funds can survive. None of our funds are in jeopardy," he said.

Refco's crash was sparked on Oct. 10 when the company suspended Chief Executive Philip Bennett after discovering that he had hidden a $430 million debt to the company.

Bennett has been arrested and charged with securities fraud.

LEGAL RESPONSE

Refco's bankruptcy filing names VR Global Partners as its No. 3 creditor, owed $380 million, behind Austrian bank BAWAG and U.S. Wells Fargo, documents submitted to the New York Southern District bankruptcy court showed.

Adding two other creditors listed at its address in the Russian capital, VR's total exposure rises to $472 million -- putting it on top of the list.

Deitz challenged the Refco version of events, however, and said he would make a counter-filing. "You will see quite quickly a filing in the bankruptcy court regarding our position," he said.

Financial sources said Deitz had briefed investors -- its clients include investors in Moscow, London, Geneva and New York -- on Thursday in a conference call and his team was working flat out to contain the crisis.

"The fundamental problem is, are the funds segregated or are they Refco's?" said one Moscow-based financial source, who asked not to be identified.

The sources said VR's mainly Russian team had regularly scored well in hedge fund performance surveys, while the outfit was shortlisted for an award this year by industry journal Hedge Funds Review.

Deitz, an alumnus of Yale University, is a bond trader who started his career at Credit Suisse First Boston in the United States and moved to Moscow in the mid-1990s to co-found brokerage Renaissance Capital.

Deitz and Renaissance Capital parted company after Russia's 1998 financial crash and he launched his own hedge fund outfit in 1999. (With reporting by Andrew Hurst and Julie Tolkacheva)
發表於 2005-10-27 18:15:59 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:9e152c0b73="gecko"]"The fundamental problem is, are the funds segregated or are they Refco's?" [/quote]

Good question
發表於 2005-10-27 19:07:05 | 顯示全部樓層
综合外电10月27日报道,瑞富(Refco Inc.)修改并扩大了其主要债权人的名单,并改变了对一些公司的欠款金额,较其上周首次申请破产保护时调整金额数亿美元。





总部位于莫斯科的对冲基金VR Global Partners LP目前成为瑞富最大的未抵押债权人,瑞富的欠款为6.2亿美元,较其10月17日向美国破产法庭申请破产保护时的3.801亿美元高出许多。





澳地利银行Bawag P.S.K. Group则从名单上降至第四,其在10月17日是排在首位的债权人。





瑞富发言人拒绝就此进行说明。包括Bawag内的几位债权人的律师也表示对此种进入破产保护程序后的反常做法难以理解。





拉脱维亚银行Rietumu Banka的律师Rick B. Antonoff表示有一种可能是处理瑞富破产事务的律师事务所Skadden、Arps、Slate和Meagher & Flom LLP在对瑞富的财务进行初步查核后可能得到了更为确切的数据。


瑞富最大的未抵押债权人 ,整个是莫名其妙,投资的款变成了贷款??
發表於 2005-10-28 11:33:47 | 顯示全部樓層

转贴]瑞富最新消息

转贴]瑞富最新消息

下个月9日,全球最大的非银行期货经纪商——瑞富目前被监管的期货证券业务将进行非公开拍卖(stalking horse bid),那将意味着不论最后的价格是多少,这部分业务都将被卖掉。而对于希望得到这部分业务的人来说,大战可能刚刚开始,因为目前已有7家国际财团都将进入这个竞争的行列。

非公开拍卖

非公开拍卖的特点就是在拍卖以前瑞富将没有任何一份购买协议,更没有一个确定的买家和一个最低的价格。瑞富唯一可以得到的就是一项保证,就是不管在拍卖的时候发生什么情况,其资产肯定会被卖掉。

而对于债权人来说,公开拍卖也意味着资产的稳定性将会受到影响。彭博社援引美国WF&G律师事务所Matthew Allen Feldman的话表示,如果有很多人希望购买这份资产的话,非公开拍卖可能并不是一个很好的方式,“因为市场具有发现价格的作用。”

瑞富的律师J.GregoryMilmoe也曾经表示,从目前竞买者的表现看来,他们也不倾向于非公开拍卖。

而对于竞买者来说这可能是一个好消息,因为他们将不需要进行持久的长期对抗。

本周一,破产法院已将11月4日确定为潜在竞购方登记截止日,瑞富公司资产拍卖日定于11月9日,最终核准日为11月10日。

私下交易变成全球抢标
本月24日,J.C.Flowers由于曼哈顿破产法庭不利于自己的判决也撤销了对于瑞富期货业务价值7.68亿美元的出价,但是越来越多的财团却正在加入其中,从而使本来的一项私下资本交易变成了全球抢标。
瑞富在26日发布的声明中称:“目前各家公司正在排队希望收购瑞富的资产。”而且这种兴趣还在增加。瑞富在新闻稿中还表示,除纯粹的资产外,瑞富的客户群体最为竞购者所垂涎。

目前为止,至少有7家国际财团表示了兴趣,其中包括目前的领先者,已经开价8.58亿美元的美国最大的独立股票期权经纪自营商互动经纪集团(Interactive B rok ers G rou p),该公司还表示将与瑞富达成一项保密协议;世界市值最大的证券商美林公司,曼氏集团(ManGroup)旗下的曼氏财务公司,上月才募资100亿美元的并购基金阿波罗资本管理公司(A p o l l o C a p i t a l M a n a g e m e n t)以及避险基金马拉松资产管理公司(M a r a t h o n A s s e t M a n a g e m e n t)、尤开百公司(Yucaipa)。这些公司不仅仅对于期货业务感兴趣,更都表示可能整体收购瑞富。

韬客外汇论坛.
根据上周二瑞富向破产法院提交的财务信息,该公司截至8月31日的资产为165亿美元,负债为168亿美元。


根据瑞富集团网站公布的资料,目前被监管的部门(也就是将被拍卖的部分)包括瑞富期货公司(Refco.LLC)以及其成员瑞富证券(R e fc o S e c u ritie s.L L C)、瑞富海外(R e fc o O v e r s e a s L td)、瑞富新加坡(R e fc o S i n g a p o r e P te .L td)、瑞富投资服务公司(Refco Investment S e r v i c e s P te .L td)、瑞富加拿大(R e f c o C a n a d a C o)、瑞富印度(R e fc o I n d i a P V T L td)、瑞富证券巴黎(R efco Securities SA)、瑞富台湾(R e fc o T a i w a n L td)以及瑞富日本(R e fc o J a p a n L td)。
                                                                                                           转自《第一财经日报》
發表於 2005-10-28 11:35:48 | 顯示全部樓層
美林等三家机构加入 瑞富期货业务收购战升温
        
        随着美林公司、曼氏集团和利昂·布莱克旗下的Apollo管理公司加入瑞富期货业务竞购行列,此前的谨慎收购行为变成了一场全球范围内向所有潜在收购者开放的收购战。

  自从瑞富集团本月17日同意将期货业务部门以7.68亿美元的价格出售给J.C. Flowers以来,至少吸引了7家机构的兴趣。在破产法院驳回J.C.Flowers竞购瑞富公司期货业务时提出的要求后,J.C.Flowers表示将不再继续推进竞购程序,退出了竞争行列。

  在其余6家感兴趣的机构中,到目前为止有两家机构给出了报价:报价最高的Interactive Brokers Group LLC不仅对瑞富期货业务部门感兴趣,而且还表示对其他业务部门也有兴趣。在另一家由迪拜政府和亿万富翁罗纳德·巴克尔组成的一个收购集团,开价8.28亿美元后,它也将瑞富纽约的业务部门收购价格提升至8.58亿美元,这一价格是其账面价值的115%。对此,瑞富公司周二未予置评。

  其他觊觎瑞富期货业务部门的还有全球最大的证券公司美林证券。该公司24日披露了收购意向。美林公司向破产法院表示,公司已于22日与纽约并购公司War-burg Pincus LLC以及对冲基金Susque-hanna一起提出收购意向,不过并没有透露收购的确切金额。上述公司均未对此作任何评论。
  曼氏集团也表达了收购瑞富整体或者部分业务的意向,一家并购公司Apollo表示也将加入拍卖的行列。马拉松资产管理公司是一家掌管100亿美元基金规模的对冲基金,也表示出了收购瑞富资产的意向。

  尽管对瑞富业务部门的收购报价越来越高,而且也有越来越多的潜在收购者,不过J.C.Flowers退出收购战还是引起了市场一阵不安。瑞富债券价格周二下跌了2.125美分,至68.625美分。瑞士信贷第一波士顿的前银行家路易斯·林纳蒂尼认为,随着众多机构加入收购战,它们也开始焦躁不安,收购价格将上升至瑞富账面价格的1.3-1.5倍,这意味着这一轮报价将上升至12亿美元。

  根据破产法院时间表,瑞富公司破产拍卖将于11月9日举行,目前瑞富公司可以决定是参与破产拍卖还是寻求出售资产。目前的收购报价涉及到瑞富集团的期货业务、海外业务以及新加坡公司。
  美国商品委员会一前董事迈克尔·格林伯格表示,如果期货业务部门得到有效的监管,它应该是一个有前途的业务。瑞富周二表示,期货业务部门的客户资产从破产前的75亿美元萎缩至目前34亿美元。它的客户纷纷转向了其对手,如曼氏集团旗下的曼氏金融。格林伯格表示,他不理解为什么对瑞富期货业务的收购变得如此狂热,尤其是在瑞富整体价值难以令人充满信心的时候。

  提出收购的大多数机构是投资银行,此外就是对冲基金。除了上述几家机构外,还有一些潜在的收购者对瑞富的资产虎视眈眈,目前至少还有两家对冲基金要求瑞富偿还它们的资产。瑞富公司的破产也使商品投资大师吉姆·罗杰斯的名誉受损,罗杰斯控制的两家基金周一向法院提出上诉,要求归还3.62亿美元资产。这两家基金指控瑞富公司在申请破产前“采取欺诈手段”将它们的资产从隔离的账户转移到了瑞富资本公司。目前瑞富公司也未对此做出回应。市场人士分析,这一诉讼可能会有助于罗杰斯挽回作为“大师”的一些颜面。
                                                                                                        摘自《证券时报》



:shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

破产了还怪吃香的啊!! :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:
發表於 2005-10-28 13:55:03 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:d1f074b001="trader"]在申请破产前“采取欺诈手段”将它们的资产从隔离的账户转移到了瑞富资本公司[/quote]

FXCM, FX Solutions 不是也在这么做吗
 樓主| 發表於 2005-10-28 14:47:42 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:210f8af40a="david11"][quote:210f8af40a="trader"]在申请破产前“采取欺诈手段”将它们的资产从隔离的账户转移到了瑞富资本公司[/quote]

FXCM, FX Solutions 不是也在这么做吗[/quote]
??? 有这个事情吗
發表於 2005-10-28 15:05:57 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:5241c5797d="everok"]
如果FXCM, FX Solutions破产,ricky你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?



答案是: NO。 这是公司法的最基本常识。


[/quote]
發表於 2005-10-28 15:13:08 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote="ricky"]
如果FXCM, FX Solutions破产,ricky你能保证他会全部退账户资金吗?


答案是: NO。 这是公司法的最基本常识。
quote]

ricky 说的,我之前也以为是隔离的账户,

瑞富公司的破产也使商品投资大师吉姆·罗杰斯的名誉受损,罗杰斯控制的两家基金周一向法院提出上诉,要求归还3.62亿美元资产。这两家基金指控瑞富公司在申请破产前“采取欺诈手段”将它们的资产从隔离的账户转移到了瑞富资本公司。


上当的不止是菜鸟, ricky最聪明, 不早告诉大家
 樓主| 發表於 2005-10-28 15:35:47 | 顯示全部樓層
FXCM, FX Solutions 不是也在这么做吗


FXCM, FX Solutions 不是也能这么做吗


这是两个完全不同的逻辑,交流实在是比较困难 :mrgreen:
發表於 2005-10-28 18:04:53 | 顯示全部樓層
ops: 呼,吓了一跳... :mrgreen:  :roll:  :twisted:
發表於 2005-10-29 12:58:56 | 顯示全部樓層
Associated Press
Refco: Unregulated Accounts to Stay Frozen
10.28.2005, 04:22 PM

Lawyers for bankrupt Refco Inc. said Friday that customers holding accounts at its unregulated unit are creditors and that those accounts will continue to be frozen.

The accounts are not customer property, said Refco attorney J. Gregory Milmoe, a lawyer with the firm of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP. That means the accountholders will join other Refco creditors in trying to get the money back.

Milmoe spoke at a meeting where unsecured Refco creditors formed a committee to represent their interests during the bankruptcy proceedings.

Those sitting on the committee are representatives of Wells Fargo & Co., VR Capital Group, Cargill Inc., Premier Bank International, Fimex, The Everest Fund and Mark Wood Investments.

One of the committee's first tasks will be to chose advisers and legal representation for the creditors.

Refco, a provider of trade execution, clearing and foreign-exchange brokerage services, filed for Chapter 11 protection two weeks ago with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan.

Its filing came on the heels of the disclosure that its then-chairman and CEO, Phillip Bennett, had hidden $430 million in bad debt.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Refco lawyer fires salvo in accounts battle
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By James Politi in New York

Updated: 12:40 a.m. ET Oct. 29, 2005
A lawyer representing Refco, the collapsed US brokerage, on Friday said customers holding accounts in the company's unregulated capital markets arm could not reclaim them as their property.

With the statement, made at a meeting of creditors in Manhattan, Refco's lawyer fired an early salvo in what is expected to be a key battle in the bankruptcy proceedings.



If the bankruptcy court supports Refco's belief that customer accounts are owned by the company rather than its clients, the amount of money that creditors can expect to receive will be significantly reduced.

"It is Skadden Arps' preliminary view that these accounts are not customer property and therefore people who have given us money in the unregulated business are creditors,'' said Gregory Milmoe, Refco's lawyer from Skadden Arps, the New York law firm. He added: "If it is ultimately determined our preliminary view is wrong, we will be able to trace and identify those accounts.''

A number of creditors present at the meeting expressed concern with the position taken by Mr Milmoe. "It is very troubling because if it's not customer property then we're sharing a distribution and we're not receiving full recovery,'' said Rick Antonoff, a lawyer with Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman.

The debate over customer accounts erupted as the US Trustee's office, which manages bankruptcies for the US Justice Department, announced the composition of the creditors' committee.

Included in the committee are VR Global Partners, a Russian hedge fund that was listed this week as the largest creditor, with an exposure of $620m; Wells Fargo, the California-based bank, Premier Bank International, Cargill , Markwood Investments, Everest Fund , and PheMex. Bawag, the Austrian bank that is among the top five creditors of Refco, was not included in the committee.

Most participants in yesterday's meeting insisted that the most important thing Refco could do at the moment was to successfully complete the sale of the regulated futures business, which fetch up to $850m.

This week, Refco set a deadline of November 4 for bids to be tabled, and November 9 as the date for the auction of the unit. Likely bidders include Interactive Brokers Group; a consortium including the Dubai Investment Group and the Yucaipa Companies; and a group including Merrill Lynch, Warburg Pincus, and Susquehanna.


-



If the bankruptcy court supports Refco's belief that customer accounts are owned by the company rather than its clients, the amount of money that creditors can expect to receive will be significantly reduced.
:mrgreen:

律师的嘴真是大,一口吃了多少钱
發表於 2005-10-29 18:35:58 | 顯示全部樓層
这种事情就是讨价还价,Refco律师的意思也代表了Refco的意思。

不过最终结果要是Refco玩儿赖成功的话,不仅Refco的名声彻底臭了,美国非监管的衍生品交易产业的名声也彻底臭了。外汇保证金交易商将重新洗牌,至少那些只有母公司是被监管体的交易商比如GFT、FXDD和Forex.com,会失去大量客户,假设那些客户是理智的客户。
 樓主| 發表於 2005-10-29 18:47:35 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:1aada83098="gecko"]这种事情就是讨价还价,Refco律师的意思也代表了Refco的意思。

不过最终结果要是Refco玩儿赖成功的话,不仅Refco的名声彻底臭了,美国非监管的衍生品交易产业的名声也彻底臭了。外汇保证金交易商将重新洗牌,至少那些只有母公司是被监管体的交易商比如GFT、FXDD和Forex.com,会失去大量客户,假设那些客户是理智的客户。[/quote]

无论结果如何,非监管的外汇公司都是炸弹。

FXDD的母公司也没有监管。
GFT的有点迷惑,它的汇款还是汇到GFT(FCM)的。
FOREX。COM整个是个笑话,在美国没有监管,在国内居然直接做销售,胆子比REFCO还大,里面的问题更说不明白。
發表於 2005-10-30 10:59:20 | 顯示全部樓層
By Dan Wilchins

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A lawyer for Refco Inc. said on Friday that customers of its bankrupt broker-dealer, Refco Capital Markets, cannot withdraw their assets and are creditors, but lawyers for those customers disagree.

The issue is one of the thorniest in the collapse of Refco (RFXCQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research), which along with 23 units filed for bankruptcy protection on October 17 after its ousted chief executive, Phillip Bennett, was charged with fraud and customers fled.

However the question of who owns the assets is resolved, risk management experts said the Refco fiasco will make customers more choosy about which brokers they trade with.

"eople don't want to go through this hassle again," said Brett Friedman, a managing director at Risk Capital, a risk management advisory firm.

Federal regulators are widening their investigation of the company. Refco's auditor, Grant Thornton, on Friday said regulators had contacted it.

Details are still emerging about who should bear responsibility for Refco's swift descent into bankruptcy, which took place just two months after its initial public offering. Bennett's lawyer has said in court that his client will vigorously contest Federal charges.

Investors have sued parties including Refco officers, the company, underwriters and loan arrangers, among others.

But Brad Hintz, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., on Friday said that if Refco's underwriters and loan arrangers settle with investors, the settlements will likely be "financially manageable."

Amid Refco's difficulties, its regulated units are still operating and have not filed for bankruptcy. They are expected to be sold.

Six or seven potential bidders have done due diligence for the regulated futures brokerage so far, said Gregory Milmoe, a lawyer at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom who represents Refco, at the creditors meeting on Friday. Sources said more suitors may emerge.

CREDITORS COMMITTEE FORMED

The bankruptcy process moved forward on Friday as the U.S. bankruptcy trustee formed a committee to negotiate on behalf of unsecured creditors, whose debt is not backed by assets.

Among the seven creditors named to the committee are Wells Fargo & Co. (WFC.N: Quote, Profile, Research), a trustee for bondholders owed $390 million, and Cargill, the largest privately held U.S. company, which has said Refco owes it more than $100 million.

The committee selected Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP as its counsel, and Houlihan Lokey Howard & Zukin as its investment banking advisor.

The number of creditors represented by the committee could grow dramatically if a judge finds that customers of Refco's unregulated, offshore broker-dealer are in fact unsecured creditors now, who are repaid only after the company pays back secured creditors like bank lenders.

Lawyers familiar with the case said Refco Capital Markets customers generally signed a standard agreement saying that Refco would not segregate their assets, and that the broker could use those assets in other transactions. That could allow Refco Capital Markets to view customer assets as its own.

Gregory Milmoe said on Friday that Refco's view about customer assets now belonging to Refco was preliminary.

But customers' lawyers said that many clients clearly intended their assets to be held in separate accounts, and never intended to transfer their assets to Refco.

"Refco's argument may be correct, but many investors thought their assets were protected, so the details of what these investors were told and how their accounts were handled will be crucial," said Chester Salomon, a lawyer at Stevens & Lee representing several customers of Refco Capital Markets.

Several creditors have sued to protect their assets.

In addition to Wells Fargo and Cargill, the members of the unsecured creditors committee include Everest Fund, Fimex, Markwood Investments, Premier Bank and VR Capital.

(Additional reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York and Kevin Drawbaugh in Washington, D.C.)
發表於 2005-10-31 11:32:15 | 顯示全部樓層
没有必要再争论什么那个公司好, 那个公司坏, 借斑竹的地方,给大家分享一点好的建议

目前標準帳號和迷你帳號只停止提款,卻仍能操作的事實,說明了REFCO還沒有正式宣布破產以及並沒有就賣出旗下業務達成協議——如果一旦達成了買賣業務協議,所有帳號將不能夠操作,並會對多餘倉位作出強行平倉的行動…

而目前,由於標準帳號還能操作,基本証實了我們的資金並沒有被挪用,即是說,一旦完成買賣,我們就能夠拿錢回來…

現在的建議是,在未來一段日子,請清空所有倉位,如果要堅持交易的話,都請以即日交易為主並且要盡量的輕倉…
同時把出現虧損的倉位緊快了結或減持…


据说上2周的美元下跌行情主要是由于美元的长线部位平仓,据说和Refco账户有关
 樓主| 發表於 2005-10-31 12:20:53 | 顯示全部樓層
由於標準帳號還能操作,基本証實了我們的資金並沒有被挪用,即是說,一旦完成買賣,我們就能夠拿錢回來…


这个推理整个逻辑混乱,以前那些在老鼠仓外汇期货公司的交易帐户都可以操作, 但是资金也是一样被挪用了。
现在既然REFCO外汇的资金已经不给客户了,在帐户上的资金只是一个数字而已。
同时既然REFCO外汇的资金已经不能动了,那么他的头寸怎么平出去?

结论,如果现在不能交易,还是正常的。
但是现在不能提款却能交易,整个是笑话。
發表於 2005-10-31 15:02:05 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:80a13792b6="everok"]
现在既然REFCO外汇的资金已经不给客户了,在帐户上的资金只是一个数字而已。
同时既然REFCO外汇的资金已经不能动了,那么他的头寸怎么平出去?

结论,如果现在不能交易,还是正常的。
但是现在不能提款却能交易,整个是笑话。[/quote]

冷静,everok你忘了做外汇的第一条“冷静”, 做事也不要做绝,Refco 也不是你们一年前大力推荐的吗,大家看你的网站不过想看到点中肯的意见, 做外汇评论的网站多的是。

再从其他的网站引用最后一段, 有好消息也有坏的, 大家自己评价了。

http://www.learncurrencytrading.com/fxforum/forumdisplay.php?s=46ba1ef0d48e402d8d987b93642e68f1&f=61

Question: As a current Refco FX customer wanting to switch to FXCM, how exactly are you planning on absorbing our accounts? Should i wait for that to happen, or would I be better off just opening a new account with FXCM and eventually have my Refco FX funds tr
Drew's answer: If you would like to trade soon you will need to open an account with FXCM. because courts are slow it is unlilkely that customer funds will be rescued in a signed deal in less then 30 days. I realize that this seems like forever but we are working as fast as we can. when refcofx accounts are rescued thoise accounts become FXCM accounts and we can integrate the two acounts. Once accounts are rescued refcofx customers will not need to fill out paperwork but will have access to theur funds to trade or withdraw as tey wish just like any regular FXCM customer.

Question: How can FXCM avoid a similar type of bankruptcy that Refco went through?
Drew's answer: It is important to note that corporate bankruptcy similar to personal bankruptcy only happens to companies that are deeply in debt and when their bsuiness prospects decline they are not able to meet those obl;igations. FXCM has NO DEBT whatsoever and therefore is not in danger of the same fate.
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